Dan: 0:00

Hi, everyone and welcome to trainingforliferedeemed. I’m your host, Dan . And I’m here with my father, David Jackson. And today we, are going to be looking in a lot more detail at the passage in one Timothy chapter two, verses eight to the end, where it talks a lot about women being modest and the authority of women, or , uh , Paul saying that they’re not allowed to have authority over men in the church. Uh, so we are going to discuss this rather difficult passage and , uh, hopefully you guys will respond to it and allow , uh , what the Bible says to really impact your perspective on what this passage really means. So Dad, next half really of chapter two of first Timothy talks a lot about women and their role and their place in the church and how they should dress and all kinds of stuff. So a lot of modern women will find it quite off-putting or offensive. And how dare God, talk to us like this? What, what is God’s point here? What’s Paul trying to get Timothy to do, to sort this out. What was his actual issue that’s happening? And then how does, how does this work now even? Yeah,

David: 1:10

I, without we often read our Bible without paying any attention to the background, the historical circumstances, when we don’t know the history, we don’t know the culture of Paul’s day, We make stuff up and it it’s really dangerous to do that, you know? Um, so I go to people who do this professionally. There’s a lovely lady who works at , um, University of Sydney. Um, Kath Welsh , I’ll give her credit she’s her specialty is the women in the Roman empire. and there’s another fellow by the name of Bruce Winter, who used to be the warden at Tyndale house in Cambridge, Australian fellow Macquarie university, brilliant guy. They’ve both worked on this field of Roman women. and what we discover is during the Roman civil wars, Kath was telling me about a third of the male population in the Roman empire was killed during the civil wars, after the assassination of Julius Caesar. And what that did was it left estates like large landholding , you know, Earl of this duke of that sort of size of estates, big money with no men left to inherit it . And it all falls to one woman. So you’ve got this massive, these corps of massively wealthy, suddenly wealthy Roman matriarchs. and there’s, there’s not a lot of men around to marry . So these ladies , have got the wealth and that money gives you power and they’re going, well, why should I live with the kind of restrictions these men used to impose on us? I mean, they’re out at sex orgies all weekend and it’s okay for them to go bonk other women, but I’m not allowed to, I’ve got to stay home in here and do the dishes sort of thing. So there’s this new Roman feminism that’s sweeping the empire. And the result is it’s about celebrity. It’s about , fashion. It’s about money , uh, and it’s about sexual freedom. So these girls are into, and that they are very young, some of those people, but they are into , never having children c ause that’ll get in the way of my, my looks. U h, so abortion is in, u m, yeah, raising, c hildren’s not happening, u m, sexual freedom to go b onk anybody I like and dress in a way that says, yeah, I’m interested. Y ou k now, look at me, I’m beautiful. Seneca has this great line. C ause there’s a bunch of grumpy old Roman men. I t was like, oh, this is all immoral. We s houldn’t be out there b onking all these girls, b ut you know, you women, y ou’re all. sluts it’s just this double standard. We still see it. U m, and in that process, he makes this line, u m, I’ve quoted it in the notes. U h, these women wear clothing, which when it is removed, reveals no less in other words t hey’re d ressed i n stuff. T hat’s totally see-through and he’s going, you know, there’s no dignity in this. Y eah.

Dan: 4:25

And so it’s these women who are in the church who are dressing like this, who are using their money for power and to , you know , the same way that they were using it in government, I guess. I mean , in that kind of political sense. Yeah.

David: 4:39

If you imagine coming as a woman in that culture, with that power and that sort of, you know , this is the pressure on women and then you come into the church and you go, submit to your husband, family values are not just family values. a la the world, not family values. a la Seneca. God help us. We don’t want to go there. Um, that’s domestic abuse, but let’s go to family values a la God. So Paul’s burden in this text, contra the way some people read it. And actually some people translate it. He’s trying to restore the dignity of Christian women. Um, and it’s, it’s sad because , I mean I had, u h, yeah, w there was a friend of our family who was a model and I mean, Paris, New York, you know, A te am m odel, earning millions a year back in the 1970s and eighties. And, you know, one stage, one of my family members looked at that and thought, Oh eah, I co uld d o that. And she could stunningly beautiful, y our auntie. And when she went to investigate what was involved, she said, no, and I’m so proud of her for doing that because she had to strip, she had to be photographed naked. She had to wander around in the change room naked. Um, there was , there was no dignity in this. They were measured. They were, you know, they’re like cattle , uh, if your waist or your boobs grow too big or too small, if you’re not exactly five 11 to six one, you know, if anything moves on your body, your career’s over and we’re talking million dollar contracts. So these women were like slaves , uh , and paraded around, you know, in their altogethers. And there’s no dignity in that. And Paul is saying, he’s not, he’s not saying, you know, ladies, you’ve got to , you know, like the girls at school, you don’t roll your skirt down, sweetheart. Um, you know , the school rules are , have your skirt round your ankles. And then you’ve got to look like we’re in a bag , over your head , who designed school uniforms . Yeah . But this is about modesty and modesty in the Bible only has to do with where you go to the toilet. It’s about disgusting stuff. It’s not about beautiful stuff. It’s not saying to a woman, you’ve got to look like one of the girls at school said to me, you want me to look like a nun? It’s not like that at all. It’s restoring your dignity. Um, and allowing, I mean, you look at Ezekiel 16 when God , uh , dresses Israel as his bride. Yeah . Um, and he’s lavish in, you know , what she wears and the fine fabrics and the, the jewellery. I mean, he just, he, he delights in this woman , uh, and she has the dignity of the Royal princess in all her glory and her clothes . Uh , you know, there’s dignity in this. And Paul is saying, he’s not using modesty as dress in a way that doesn’t give men permission to rape you, which is, yeah . You never have permission for that. That’s right. But that’s how people read this text, you know, you know, you don’t tell them how I dress. Doesn’t give you permission. And that’s true. Uh , it’s true. And men need to get over that one. Um, but at the same time, we’re looking at the dignity of the woman. Uh, and these women had none. They were like those models that are, you know, they think they’re in there to be popular , uh , to be, to be admired, but they’re just, they’re being treated like cattle. Uh , and there’s no dignity in that. So, yeah, Paul’s right into this thing. And in that you restore your relationships. Um, you look at how families work in marriage experiences today, and people are hurt. The relationships are falling apart. So let’s build it the way God designed it to work. And that, that creates other issues.

Dan: 8:57

So that , that does the modesty staff and explains that to me. But what about the rest of this passage? Is it really started to talk about, you know , the fact that, well, Paul says women shouldn’t be teaching in the church. They shouldn’t be a have, well, it doesn’t say that it says it shouldn’t have authority over the men in the church. Sorry, let me clarify that. The passage says the man, the woman shouldn’t have authority over the man in the church. So what does that actually mean? Because this is different. This is not based on cultural stuff , because Paul then goes on to base it on, you know, Eve being deceived first and Adam being created first. And so it’s really, this is getting based on creation, not based on a cultural perspective on things. So can you explain this to us? Um , and what does this mean for us in the church? Should women not be teaching at the front or

David: 9:51

Is this oppressive power and abusive and all sorts of things. Look where we’re in a difficult culture scene at the minute. Um, and as I look at, as we look around at the world, I’ve got to ask the world is accusing the church of being abusive and, you know , patriarchal is bad. And any exercise of power is rape. We’re in this culture of , um, of power and autonomy. Uh, it’s very much like the Roman culture of Paul’s day, actually. But I want to ask the question, how’s that working out for you? Um, if everybody is autonomous, then we’re all divided and we’re all against each other, and it’s my power versus your power. It’s not the solution to abuse and that, that people sell it to be, you know , we’re empowering everybody. That, that sounds lovely, but it actually sets everybody up for a fight. It doesn’t create a social structure that is going to work. So one of the things that instead of arguing about men and women and their roles and things like that, we’ve got to Paul takes us back to Genesis and that’s one of the fundamental things behind our training for life redeemed idea. Um, we’re , we’ve messed up the machinery and the design that God built into human living together , uh, into our nature, into our DNA, into who we are, well we’ve messed that up. We’ve, we’ve thrown his plan out the window and come up with our own better plan. Um , and the result is we’re smashing each other. Uh, and you’ve only got to look at the rate of, of divorce and domestic violence and all those sorts of things to know that our solutions to power , are not working. There’s a lot that a lie of Satan that that’s embedded right at the very bottom of all of this and his lie goes something like this in order to be equal, you have to do the same thing you have to , um, you have to be the same. So I remember when I was at uni in the sixties and seventies , that early stage of feminism and this terrible lie, they sold the women in order to be equal to men. You have to look like one. So we had the Bra Burnini with the women, started to dress like men. U m, I mean, we, weren’t very polite in response. I must admit t hey were, i f we referred to them as the Hairy legged tarantulas, u m, because tarantulas eat their husbands. Y eah.

Dan: 12:31

Yeah . Don’t do that these days. my wife will get pretty cranky,

David: 12:35

But it was, it was so in your face, but what really saddened me at the time was looking at these ladies , um, and they weren’t allowed to be women. They had to be masculine to be equal. And so we have a new way/ phase of feminism that says, why can’t I be a woman and still be equal to a man? Now, the answer to that is, is here in the Bible because one of the Paul does this big thing in Corinthians. Um, we all like that, you know, one Corinthians 13 , uh, the chapter on love. Yeah . Yeah. It’s embedded between chapters 11 and 14, where he’s talking about living together as the body of Christ. And there’s a bunch of people who are different. So we hear this unity in diversity slogan. Um, but we don’t really accept the diversity. We say, we do, we want to be inclusive, but if you want to be inclusive, you really have to be the same. And that’s the lie to be genuinely inclusive. You have to be allowed to be different. Um, so you know, many years ago when I was working with disability , uh, issues in special ed, I wrote a paper for Macquarie Uni on , um, you know, the right to be, to belong in the right to be me. Uh, why can’t I be me and belong? So what do you do with the fact that a woman is different to a man? Can a person who, two people who are different be equal, and how then does that work? And Paul says, you know what, the guy that sweeps out the church after the service is equal dignity and value to the guy that preaches the sermon. You know , this is the body of Christ. If you take off, you know , this little bit of the body, the whole body suffers, it’s a belonging, it’s a , it’s a dignity. And he says, you know, that the hidden parts of the body receive more dignity. Um, now our culture won’t accept that , uh, in order to equal, I have to be the same and that’s a ticket for slavery. So Paul comes along and he says, all right , let’s start with learning to relate to authority. And in Corinthians, he says , you know, there’s God, the father and God, the son, they are equally God. And the son submits to the father in the same way. The church submits to Jesus in the same way. A wife submits to her husband and children submit to their parents. And we all submit to the governing authorities and we build the fifth commandment honour, your father and mother into the fabric of our culture to be able to do that. So that submission doesn’t mean inferiority and or authority doesn’t mean superiority. That there’s the dignity of the two roles. So we talk about it being complimentary. Yeah . The one doesn’t work without the other. Um, and any bloke who is honest, has to know that without a wise woman, by his side, he’s going to be a boofhead.

Dan: 15:59

Oh , yes . Are designed to help us in multiple ways as you know , like God is described as our helper.

David: 16:06

Yeah. And th th that helping word, isn’t a word for, okay, woman go and do the dishes. That’s the word? It’s the same word. That means an ally. So when I’m in trouble and my city is attacked, I call for my ally to rescue me. That’s the word that’s used for the wife. Yeah . And let’s face it. They do. They’re very good at it. Then they’re very good at it. And it’s embarrassing. But then you look at the way things work, the men are fleeing responsibility. Yeah. And the women are left with it and that’s abusive. And Paul saying, let’s go back to the way God designed this to work and embed it with love. So male leadership in the church is to be modelled on Christ’s use of authority. U m, and I’ll tell the story t hat t he, probably the best sermon I ever heard was Jay Adams. Um, and the , the pastor at that church had a sore throat. And Jay happened to be in the audience and he went down and he said, come on. I want you to preach the sermon , no notice at all. And he preached a blinder, but I just remember in Ephesians five, you know, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and laid down his life for her that’s what leadership and authority is supposed to look like. Yeah . Um, and so he’s talking about that here and saying, you know, I don’t permit, if a woman takes over that role, she damages herself and she’s not doing the thing that we need her to do. We desperately needed to do. And B she’s humiliating, the people whose responsibility it is. And when that happens, they’re not likely to come back and have another go because they’ve been made to look like fools. So we don’t want that battle going on in the church. And it was happening at Corinth and it was happening here in Ephesus, and it’s still happening.

Dan: 18:04

And that’s the curse that God gives the woman. Yeah .

David: 18:07

Yeah . Genesis three 16. You know, your desire will be for your husband, but it’s not a desire back, back in Hebrew class, Sue Foh put her hand up with this is, this is great fun. They didn’t let women come to theological college because theological college was only there to train pastors. Like you only need to study the Bible for a job. Yeah. I thought that was obscene. So your mother is the second cohort of women to be allowed into the seminary. And this lady was among them. And in Hebrew class, she’s reading Genesis three 16. She puts her hand up and she says, to Ray Dillard um , professor Dillard, why is it a problem, a curse for me to desire my husband and regular just stopped dead, looked at the passage and said, I never saw that before professor of Hebrew, he reads 30 languages. You know , I’d never big , he’s a bloke. He doesn’t see this stuff. So we need these ladies. Yeah . You know , and they’re engaged in these conversations. So she went and wrote a paper on it. She ended up writing a book on it. Um, and it was a brilliant insight. The word only occurs three times and it refers to a desire chapter four sins. Desire is for Kane , it’s going to pounce it . You like a lion. Yeah . Um, dominating you, overwhelming you , um , not supporting you, not rescuing you, but taking your place. Relationships don’t work well that way. So Paul’s trying to re-institute that and the dignity of it. Um, and he’s doing it in the face of some pretty horrible men.

Dan: 19:47

Well, that brings us to the end of this episode. This is episode 34B. So if you would like to grab the , uh , daily notes for this section and the daily notes have yeah. They go through this whole section in a lot of detail as well. So please make sure you come over to trainingforliferedeemed.com/34 B, to make sure you can grab those study notes again, this one is on video, so you can come and watch us chat about this as well, and see the faces we book . And , uh , we hope that you will come back and join us next time. Please make sure that you subscribe so that you get notified for the next episode. And also leave us a review if you found this helpful, thank you very much.