As we begin a new series looking at the theology of the child, we are starting off by looking at how God sees children as both his image and a blessing to their parents.
Hi everyone And welcome to training for life redeemed. I’m Dan. I’m here with my father, David Jackson. Today we’re going to begin a new series. We’re breaking away from what we’ve been doing looking at Psalms. We took a few weeks off so today we are back in the saddle. Dad’s changing topics. You’ve been busy over the last week or so doing a whole bunch of presentations at schools and stuff. And some of the feedback that you’ve gotten has led us to look into more detail of, well, I mean, We have a theology of the child but to actually start sharing information around, the theology of children. And so this will impact you really. If you’re going to have kids, if you do have kids, you are kids, If you’re a church that runs a kids’ program, if there’s people in the church who are going to have kids, if you’re at a school, there’s a million ways that this is going to affect everyone. Yeah. But this is really going to be, we’re going to go through and look at what it means when we talk about children in relation to God.
Yeah What does God say about who they are, what they’re like, whether they’re saved, how they’re saved, how we should be best preparing them for future life. As Christians or as followers of Jesus, how do we go about this whole process. And we start with basically, what God says about who they are. Yeah. So Dad there’s really no better place to start than to go back to Genesis And this is when God creates mankind. We’re created in his image, children, God’s image I mean. I know before you start talking. Yeah
When I used to teach the idea of the image of God to my students I would often connect the Genesis passage to you, then you go two chapters later or whatever, to I think it’s chapter three when Adam has his child in his image Yes. And I used to say the kids you know in one sense, Not in the explicit you’re saved sense but in the, in a general sense, people are the children of God.
and there is an sense of where people are generally spoken of as the sons of god in a particular way not in a direct explicit way like Jesus is the Son of God. But but we are his children. in one sense. And so. If I switch over to you or what you want to say about being in the image of God and God commanding us to be fruitful and multiply fill the earth all that kind of stuff
3.20 David
Yeah It’s. We live in a culture… I think one of the things that’s prompted this is that there’s massive changes happening in terms of how we view children. Our culture has become anti-child. I would have to say, our culture is/has some very strange responses to children and ways of raising children. And we’ve moved into very dangerous territory. Because our values for things seem to be all about economics. It’s all about money and jobs and prosperity and my personal wellbeing. And if children get in the way of that which they do. Oh,
4.06 Dan
I’m going to counter that. They do not get in the way of that…Okay. Our culture tells us that children get in the way Yeah Yeah. But when you think of your personal wellbeing as a Christian is to become more and more like Christ I can think of no better way. For you to (teaches you humility)
4.26 David
and the culture is saying it’s all about money. And children get in the way that. They get in the way of career. They get in the way of, you know my social life my, whatever I want to do…
If we set out aim for life in the wrong place children are in a bad place. And that’s where our culture is. So we want to go back and we want to start and rethink and critique our culture.
And say no no no no no. What does God say about children since he creates them. Let’s focus on that. And the first thing, you’re right, he says he’s created men and women in the image of God. So…
As you go through the history of theology people think of the image of God as something invisible. It could be your intelligence. I had one fellow argue the image of God is the fact that we speak language. You know cause we’re the only species on earth that speak language and God is the word therefore we’re the image of the word therefore that’s what the image of God is. You can’t take the image of God and make it abstract. So an image is something visible by definition. So when, when you have the invisible creator God, and he reveals himself he reveals himself in a picture of himself. And that picture of himself is the one who is supposed to be managing God’s property on his behalf. And that image of God, God’s offspring, this, the first derivative if you like for the mathematicians out there, is men and women. Made in the image of God. So everything about us. Our body included is a revelation of the character of God. And therefore we have a dignity that no other species on the planet has.
And that. That’s where we start. remembering that days one to six (he skipped day two) everything is beautiful. Everything is good. But when he gets to day six. Everything is beautiful, Everything’s good. Then we go a little extra mile on day six and we create men and women. And that’s the point when God says everything is very good. Hmm. Very beautiful. And so there we are, we are something good, something beautiful, something that glorifies God. And that’s why we’re here. Yeah.
6.58 Dan
And that’s going to include children.
7.00 David
And that includes every image of God which is children, everybody. Every human being…And the other thing in Genesis one that he goes on to say, is that he gave he gave us a blessing…and he gave us three blessings, be fruitful multiply fill the earth subdue it and rule over it. Now there’s your measure of self-esteem right there. Yeah. Am I…
Where do I stand in terms of value? my value in terms of what am I contributing? Having children is the first one. The second one is my skill in creating culture subdue the earth.
My third one is whether I’m in control and I’m managing all of this safely to the glory of God. It’s his property. I’m looking after it. So those three things are the measure of my success. If you want to talk about self-esteem that’s where they are.
And if you know teenagers you know they’re struggling with their sexual identity and their relationships. Yeah fruitful multiply fill the earth: Where do I fit? Yeah Am I the one that’s rejected? Subdue the earth. Am I competent or am I just a…useless lump of meat?
And the last one is, am I in control, am I safe? So go and do your martial arts if you think that’s going to work. But at the end of the day, these are the blessings that are gifts from God. And the human species has those three blessings.
I love this other bit, because then the question is what about the child in the womb? Hmm. And of course our culture has defined…
Well, Let’s stress. Push that a little bit further. Our culture thinks that a politician and a parliament has the authority to decide who is and is not human…
8.55 Dan
Yeah. And all over the world they’ll make different decisions
8.58 David
And they make different decisions at different points of history. So, you know in, in European culture, in the 18th and 19th centuries. Black people Africans were not human. in Australian culture- I was in year 11 in 1967 when we voted to give citizenship to Aborigines. And we declared that they were not part of national parks and wildlife. So they were under the ministry for national parks, we moved them across to the prime minister’s department. Yeah they were citizens. They were human beings. I was alive when that happened.
And the whole nation now sits and looks at those values and says, are you kidding…
You know, and, but. A nation that thinks that we get to decide who is and isn’t human. Yeah Hitler decided Jews and Slavs weren’t human; gypsies weren’t human. And now in Western society and all around the world, we decided that the unborn child is not a human being.
The unborn child is part of the woman’s body. And I’ve heard the phrase like a toenail. Getting a haircut. Or having your appendix out. The baby is just a piece of flesh.
Now this is a fantasy. It’s not reality. And when you live your fantasy you break reality And when you break reality, there are huge consequences, emotional, physical ,psychological. So we need to go back to the scriptures and I love this Psalm 139. You formed my inward parts You knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you. I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works? My person knows it very well. So it’s me in my mother’s womb. And that’s a powerful, powerful passage.
10.56 Dan
Yeah. I will just interject to what you said earlier to when. Because there’ll be people listening to this who, will have had miscarriages and had abortion. And stuff. and. Yeah. There is. Yeah. A sense of guilt that they will feel from that. I don’t want us to be. To for them to feel like we’re laying that onto them. At the same time but at this. But still holding true to the fact that. There was a child. and that’s why they will feel that grief and that. T
11.25 David
That’s the point.
Let’s face the reality of the grief. Let’s face the reality of our shame. I mean you and I are sitting here We’ve sinned. Yeah. We’ve had to deal with that guilt and shame. whether it’s this shame or that shame or whatever.
Whatever violates the character of God the image of God…
A friend of mine calls it moral injury. and we all suffer that. and the good news I mean. You jump in with the good news. There’s God taking the flesh, being stripped naked and shameful. Bearing the wounds bearing the suffering and being aborted. Yeah To pay for our sin. Yeah. And God did that to his own son. Yeah so that you and I would be forgiven.
And that’s at that point you’ve got to say I can let go of my guilt. Hmm, I can let go of my shame. He took it. He owns it. It’s dealt with.
And that’s a wonderful thing…
Yeah that lifts the world off your shoulders. And takes that wound out of your gut. It’s huge. And you’re right there. It’s not that we’re being insensitive to that.
But if we don’t affirm that this child in the womb is the image of God. Is a person. We’re not dealing with reality the way God designed it to work. Yeah.
12.54 Dan
So Dad. We got to talk a bit more about how children are blessing. And you were talking earlier about how that’s cultural to think of children as a blessing Yes. yeah I. I was chatting a while ago about a game that.
New game that we’ve bought at home It’s called cashflow It’s all about. People investment and, and how to manage money and stuff And yeah…
like monopoly You. In a sense. But there is a section in it where, you know when you land on a particular space you have a child. and that child comes with a cost which is reality. Well this is financial education That’s a cost.
Yep Yep. I’ll send you the bill. So my kids are like…every time they left. Ah dammit. I landed on the child.
Dad goes there Cashflow. which for the game it’s fine. But when you’re thinking about. It’s teaching the real life and actually had a point. well we’ll play the game and Frida turns, Did we get that Do you regret having us…
Definitely not because the joy and the blessing of children is amazing. Particularly when you think of blessing in terms of…your Christian growth and maturity. Yeah God is a father and I am now father I get to sit there and go. all the frustrations that I bring to the father. Like I can see them in my own children because they bring me exactly the same frustrations there in my image right.
14.25 David
And I will go back. I mean I’m. I’m that generation older. When…
Our kids were born. so 1979…
when our first son was born. We did a lot of research into having babies. and we discovered that. It’s a good thing for Dad to be in the room when Mum gives birth. That was a whole new idea.
Men weren’t allowed anywhere near birth prior to my generation. Fathers weren’t allowed any birth. Fathers Yeah Male doctors. So women doctors weren’t allowed anywhere. And then it’s just not the.
Massive issues around childbirth right? so we had to be fairly assertive for me to be in the birthing room. I had to be gowned. I had to be vetted and everything else.
I just remember there were, when Sam was born. We had a lady obstetrician who was absolutely wonderful, but she handed me this greasy looking squirming ball of child. and there were three nurses. All standing next to me with their hands out. Like he’s going to drop it He’s going to drop it…right.
But…when you’re in that moment, You want to talk about children being a blessing? He comes out of the womb. He opened his eyes and he looks up at me. And you go. Oh my heavens.
how on God’s green earth? Do we produce. A person. Like that. And yeah you’re a squirming little mess, but wow.
and I had the joy of giving him his bath and washing all that Verdigris and mark off him. And he’s sitting there just staring into your face going, Hey who are you? And you put him on the mother’s breast and he’s looking at her and the whole place in that moment. If you don’t understand that a child is a blessing…
You know, something’s wrong Yeah.
16.37 Dan
And there is definitely an element of you being in the space The Mel Yeah my wife is a midwife. and is it a research All the rest of it There’s actually a lot of research into how you can actually use males being present for birth, to have a massive impact particularly on the cultures that have. That have high violence rates towards them, between spouses. And it’s like this is…
You can change whole cultures by having a male present at the birth. To witness the woman in her strength giving birth Yeah. And then…to have that. I mean there’s oxytosin there’s all kinds of stuff that’s going on there to stuff They’re really developed those bonds and that, but the blessing of children. I look around at friends of mine.
Who. And single people who have desperately been wanting to have children. People who didn’t want to have children. All sorts of responses, but when you get to be 72 years old…
You want to talk about a blessing? What a blessing children are. it is. It’s. Yeah it’s huge.
Hmm. Mmm. Children are a blessing. When. People get married I would always write on the the card we sent in you know when you’re invited to a wedding Yeah. Sam twenty, a hundred and twenty seven hundred and twenty eight I’ll read you a bit of it. Children are a heritage from the Lord. The fruit of the womb is a reward like arrows in the hand of a warrior. are the children of one’s youth blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them…
That’s not our culture. but he will not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate. And there’s been a couple of occasions when I’ve said to a few people you want to take on my family. Let me introduce you to my three sons. Yeah we will stand up together.
We will hold the fort together We will work together. we are family We are one. you touch one you touch all. that element that’s a blessing. and it’s particularly a blessing as you get older.
to know that. You know…
Took your mom to the hospital recently. I couldn’t get her back into bed. Hit the phone. Eldest son is down here in three minutes. That’s these kids are a blessing in so many ways They also keep you honest…
Cut Cut the BS Dad…
They remind you of your humility. But it’s wonderful. So go and look at those passages Children are a blessing. And people. Some people are desperate to have kids.
Others are scared to death of having kids. But it doesn’t change the theology of the child. The child themselves is a blessing. I vividly remember. We’ve had a number of girls go through school who are suddenly pregnant. didn’t expect it and are in panic mode. and what’s your first reaction to a young lady who our culture would say, fell pregnant. Or is in trouble…
my first reaction is praise the Lord What a blessing…
This is a wonderful thing that has happened to you. And you may be panicking now how are you going to manage it? By all means but the child that is in your womb is a blessing. Not a curse, not a punishment, a blessing. Yeah, and you’re going to enjoy That blessing. And you’re going to sit there and say why would God give somebody like me? Something so wonderful. Yeah. we need to change the culture in that thinking.
20.27 Dan
All right Dad. Children are a blessing. But I have two of them…
And yes they’re a blessing in many many ways but they also very sinful…
I mean, don’t get me wrong, adults. Are just as bad. Particularly these days if they’re not grown to actually You know develop their character in some kind of way. or get some discipline in any way…
They, you You know, people who did they go home My kids so innocent And you’re like no way man. And my one year old smacking people in the head. And he’s stealing things. Unusual. I go through the whole stay there…
I’ve had kids.
21.08 David
Have you seen churches called the church of the holy innocents. And…
there’s a. In the oh, It’s Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Anglican tradition. You’ll find ’em. Churches and named after saints Yeah. Okay well there’s, the feast of the holy innocents.
And it’s a reference to all the babies Herod killed in Bethlehem…
because they were babies and he killed them Therefore the innocent, therefore they’re all going to heaven. Yeah we’re going to talk about that in a later episode. But my answer to people who think oh they’re all holy innocents. Is you need to do more babysitter…
Yeah. And I’ll share one story. trying to convince some people that, you know the cute little darling is really responsible for their behavior. Sitting in our living room. Were two of our older grandchildren…
One was six months one was three months The six month old is sitting up. The three month old is just crawling. Okay. Just beginning to move around. So the little feller.
He’s playing with a car on the floor. Just…fiddling around with it. And he rolled away and he goes over somewhere else. The other one does a little bum shuffle over grabs the car bum shuffles back. And he’s got the car Having a good time.
The little one comes back looking for the car. The six month old puts it behind his back…
And then looks at grandpa and looks down like don’t look at me. I’m busted. Tell me they don’t know what they’re doing. You know, they’re damaged by sin. But the damaged.
we need to do things like going to. The day you eat it you’ll surely die. If there’s separation, it breaks relationships that damages my body. It cuts me off from God It’s It’s yeah it’s rottenness. Two or three…
But the point is…
When Adam sinned. Before God dumped the curses on him. And took away the, you know, The blessings of having children…
With all that stuff about the struggles of childbirth and miscarriage or whatever…he says I will. Solve the problem Genesis 3:15. Hmm. And the woman is going to solve the problem by having a baby. Yeah.
A baby boy. Without a father…
Who’s going to start a new humanity. Now that you know with that the savior is coming. I’ll explain to you the damage that sin’s done. Yep. And that’s that’s important.
That we know that the saviour. So when we go through the bottle we have, you know Psalm 51:5, I was brought forth in iniquity in sin. My mother conceived me. all have sinned short of the glory of God…
Sin came into the world through one man therefore all who are descended from that one man. enemies of God. Yeah. So the child conceived in the womb the sperm enters the egg. You’ve got a sinner on your hands.
That’s the theology of the child. It’s not because they did anything right or wrong. It’s because they’ve inherited this state. Because our first father. Declared war on God.
Yeah. On the wrong side of the war. They’re on the wrong side of the war. And in Genesis 3:15 God promised he would bring people back onto his side of the war, through the savior. So we’ve got to recognize that when we deal with children…
24.48 Dan
Yeah So you have. We’re all sinful. I think adults from the time they’re conceived everyone sinful. yeah dad apparently there’s a few verses in the Bible. talk about.
Babies even in the womb. Who seem to be praising God. Like John the Baptist jumps when Jesus enters the room. And he’s…
just jump, jump, jump it with the Holy Spirit. If I was his filled by the holy spirit he does that. Yeah Luke 1:15 before we have the Holy Spirit And then…
Baby inside a womb. Yeah You got it So…
25.24 David
The prophet says, he will be great before the Lord. he will be filled with the holy spirit even from his mother’s womb. David in the Psalms. I was translating Psalm 71 the other day. you oh Lord. Are My hope my trust. Lord from my youth upon you I have leaned from before my. birth. On you I have leaned from before my birth. You who took me from my mother’s womb.
So we don’t enter this world by accident. We enter according to God’s. Pre creation plan. We come into the world as people he has written into his story. and the God who creates us is a God who is able to save children.
In the womb It doesn’t depend on your IQ, your muscles, your good works or anything else. He’s able to save. I just love the line. You know the disciples were. Carrying on a bit.
And Jesus says it’s easier. For a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved…
And. The disciples say well, What hope is there…
For anybody. And he said what’s impossible for you is possible for God. We can’t see how a child in the womb could be saved. Yeah, I mean, But God can do it.
25.55 Dan
And part of that will come down to you. Is it the order of salvation Is that what it’s called? Yeah. Yeah. Do You have faith first or does the holy spirit come first.
27.03 David
Is it is it a work of God or is it something that God and I have to work out together. 27.04Dan
Then continues right Like yeah It’s psalm 8 weeks is one of my favorites I was talks about your infants. Being breastfed. Praising God out of the mouth of infants Yeah.
And I think yeah So there’s in the womb out of the room They didn’t have this. There are kids who are saved before They’re. Able to express that themselves you. in at least in a…verbal communication.
27.29 David
It’s our limitation.
- You know I don’t know whether a child is saved. I can tell me, Hmm. And I have to take on face value What they tell me I can’t. I can’t see the heart I can’t.
Yeah. Yeah Put the litmus paper over and see are you born again.
That’s a work of God. And I can only go on the how that evidences out. And my job is to encourage it. Not to sit in judgment on it in a sense. we’re here to build up.
Not to pull it apart and put it back together again. Yeah, so. We’re going to watch what God does with children. To take them from being his enemies to being…adopted back into his family. and God loves to do that.
It’ll re beg the question. Are all children going to be saved?
28.28 Dan
It’s a very good question to add. What are we going to do…
This is the end of this episode. I want to thank everyone for listening We are going to get into the question of how children might be saved how they are saved how it all works. over the coming episodes. So please make sure that you subscribe to the podcast come back and join us next week. We would love to have you listen to it as we chat about what the Bible.
says about how children. even infants. And babies inside the womb can possibly be saved. so we are going to continue to chat about that. If you want to, I’d say normally come and grab the study notes.
but we’re not doing study notes for these, this series What we’re going to do instead is we want to answer your questions. And so if you head over to training for life redeemed.com/114 So 1, 1, 4 you’ll land on the page where you can watch the video listen to the podcast there’s a transcript and stuff. But at the bottom of that page will also be a form that you can use to submit questions to us that you would like us to talk about. As we look at the theology of the child. So if you go there, trainingforliferedeemed.com/114.
And you can send us your questions We’ll then go through the questions.
we have kind of a plan already of what we’re going to cover So we’ll try and cover the questions in with the topics when we’re talking about them. If your sits outside of that. We’ll still try and answer it. within the episodes as we go we might add them at the end or start off by answering a couple of questions or something like that. But yeah we’re looking forward to.
Addressing exactly what you’re after. from us And if you’re watching this on YouTube there’ll be a link. Underneath the video just click the link.
