Episode 115 Is There an Age of Consent?

Dan: Hi everyone and welcome to training for life redeemed. I’m your host, Dan as always. I’m joined by my father, David Jackson. We started last week, Dad, looking at the theology of the child and we’re going to be continuing that So today we’re going to be looking at the idea whether or not, there’s an age of consent Dad which generally, it’s kind of accepted thing around the world. The idea that you kids reaching age, anything can consent, particularly like medical fields and all that kind of stuff where they get to make their own choices. They get held responsible for their choices. Whether that be consenting to sexual relationships, consenting to driving, yeah, lots of different ages for different things, but we’re going to be specifically focusing on the idea of having an age of consent where there’s this age or whatever when a child suddenly goes from being innocent to being held responsible for their decisions. And they know what the difference between good and evil and making decisions for themselves and are responsible for that Yeah.

David: Yep, sounds good.

Dan: Right. So Dad lots of people will tell me that there is an age of consent and there might be a couple of passages that kind of relate to it. But most of what I see what I’m talking to people about it is. It’s got to do with our culture and what we think of children, more than it does with what’s coming out of the Bible, can you give us a bit more of a background. I don’t know about this idea of age of consent. Where it’s come from. Why it’s so popular at the moment all that kind of stuff.

David: Age of consent really is about the age at which we can hold a child accountable for what they’re doing and the degree to which we can hold a child accountable. It’s not about their relationship with God. That’s next week, we’re going to talk about children and how salvation works for children. But when we are dealing with children, whether it’s as parents, or as the church or school teachers, or the police, even what are we dealing with it, where’s the level of responsibility and how does that work?

That’s a tricky question and my wife keeps tell reminding me that God made children cute so that they live longer. same goes for puppies. It’s the idea that, when we look at a child and they’re so cute and all the rest of it and we make excuses We rescue them, we don’t hold them accountable. and then somewhere along the line suddenly wham bang They are accountable. And where’s the process? What are the cutoffs? What’s going on here? so, I think of cultural things like, How do you mark when a child reaches adulthood?

How do you mark? what are the boundaries when I was a kid in the 1950s and 60s? I was just thinking of this today, boys up to year seven, wore short pants. So when you hit puberty. Then school uniforms changed and the boys got long pants. That was like Year 8. So, you’re in short pants because you’re a child and then you’ve got long pants on you’re a teen, you’re not an adult. But you’re a teenager. And what level of responsibility are we talking about. back then We were referred to as teenagers or the police like to use the word youths. And it’s like Western Sydney, everything. that’s bad happened is caused by youths, youth trouble. So where’s that cut off? And it seems to be puberty is a pretty significant part of that.

Dan: And I think throughout history, I remember reading quite a few books when I was looking to, had a son. So, how do I raise it? He raise a boy. And yeah, I liked reading Steve Biddulph’s stuff. He talks a lot about The whole initiation process that happens throughout ancient history, its existed for of such a long time. And then suddenly the Western world just not really get rid of that completely and He talks a lot about how important it actually is, for those kinds of things to exist and to mark a transition from childhood, to adulthood. And he basically just says this whole idea of teenage-hood is a made up thing that the West has done so that the youth can do whatever they like and not be held responsible for longer.

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Dan: From my memory. he didn’t seem to have a great opinion of it. And honestly, when I think back what I look at it and I think about initiation stuff and how things used to work, kids used to hit puberty and then boys would be taken away from their mums and, turned into you through initiation,… whatever, And, yeah, some of those initiation processes. Sure were very dangerous and inappropriate possibly but it was still that idea of again. you’re a man and so now you hang out with the men and it’s kind of when they’re apprenticeship type thing starts that have become full-fledged elders, type men, but they’re men like they hang out. And that idea of there being this teenage hood where boys and girls. it’s not just for boys but they just have this period of time where they Are.

David: Not responsible.

Dan: Want to be free and be responsible but they also are not given that and that there’s a lot of research into brain development these days and Your brain doesn’t fully developed in 21 but my perspective I’m like Yeah, but your brain also develops according to house used and so if you take the brain of it’s someone who’s coming out of. Very hard contexts. Yeah, whether it be. Yeah, I can the one that in my head is Sudan and the conflict. That’s happened over there and the immigrants that have come to Australia from that if you look at their brains compared to a normal person who grew up in Australia’s brain, I think that would be very, very different in terms of their ability, to manage risk and to identify things and all that kind of like because they’ve had to do it. There’s that element of we buffered these kids so they don’t actually have to do it and then they just don’t do it until they need to.

David: Yeah. Yeah the idea of training a child for adulthood and staging the stages at which you challenge them with responsibility, we talk about the dignity of risk. So giving a child a hammer and saying, Go for it. There’s risks in every stage of this process. I actually think puberty obviously is a really significant stage. And I just love the story about Jesus when he hit puberty. so when you go to Luke 2, at the end of that, In the Jewish society of the time up till a boy hits puberty. All of the children were up to the age. All the children, sit with the women. So the boys sit with Mummy. But when they hit puberty, they don’t want to sit with Mummy, they want to be with the men and rightly how do you say to a boy? You are now a man And the mark of that manhood seems to be. If you are physically able to father your own children, you are an adult. If you’re a woman and you are now able to conceive, you’re a woman, not a little girl anymore. So those changes. So I just love this thing, They go down to Jerusalem when Jesus is 12 because they’ve got to go down every year for the feasts. And they take Jesus, and usually people went from Galilee in a big mob for security reasons. it’s a hundred K walk. So, three days to get to Jerusalem with the wife and the kids and the rest of and the donkey. You get down there. Jesus has been traveling down with Mummy. And when he gets down there, he’s examined by the elders at the temple. He passes, his Bible exam or whatever process they went through. And so now he is with the men, so Mum and Dad leave, and they’re on the way back and they’re half a day out of Jerusalem. And it hasn’t twigged that Mary thinks he’s with Joseph because he’s supposed to be with the blokes and  Joseph assumes. He’s with Mum because he always has been and they both look at each other and go. Where is he? And he’s back in the temple. Discussing the Bible. And they rebuke him for that. And he says, What do you think I’m in my father’s house doing but I’m here. He’s speaking to his parents as an adult. And I think maybe his father got a hold of him and dragged him off, but this is that transition mark. So in the synagogue, the boys come to the front. They demonstrate that they’ve understood the word of God, the Torah, the instructions and when they pass that exam, their bar mitzvah, they then go and sit with the men. And the girls don’t have a bar mitzvah because even though they might know the Bible and they know the Torah and all the things for adults, they’re still girls, they’re women and they stay with the women. So there’s no transition across the room there. These days girls do do a Batmitzveh but marking that point of transition. and my observation with kids is that, if you don’t mark it, they’re going to fight you for it.

So, your 13 year old son is now going to be asserting his manhood. He doesn’t want to be a mummy’s boy. He wants to be with the men. And he wants to be treated like a man and treated with responsibility and you have to give it to them, you have to acknowledge it. So as a high school teacher when the kids came in school, I never refer to high school kids as pupils That used to annoy me pupils are in primary Students are in high school. I would introduce. I would address them as ladies and gentlemen. Not as kids or children. In high school, it’s just we need to mark and bring that culture of respect in. And that’s why age of consent. It’s really not about consent It’s about responsibility and maturity.

Dan: Yeah and so if we go modern now and we talk about psychological theories and all that kind of stuff that have influenced this idea of consent. So I know you want to talk about Piaget And his ideas and all the psychological things about just generally how kids develop and not that, he’s general ideas are terrible. But if you take them as cut and dry up until this point, the kids doing this up into that point and then just go that can be very flexible for many kids. Yeah tell us about that and the idea of how that’s then shifted across to the church.

David: Back in 1932 Piaget came up with this idea of the stages of moral development among children. And he ratcheted it up The final stage was moral autonomy where the child basically makes up the rules for themselves and they’re resisting other people telling them what to do. They’re setting up their own ethics, their own morals, their own lifestyle. but Piaget the goal was to have a child who is now an adult able to think for themselves able to reject society’s values and come up with their own values, that was the ultimate stage of moral development.

David: Along came a fella called Kohlberg, followed by Fowler Fenemma, Versterhof and a couple of others, and they decided that we could transfer this moral theory of development into a spiritual here at stages of development. so now that you come up with these models where children don’t get converted Children just grow into being more and more Christian or not. It’s an osmosis a process that happens psychologically. It doesn’t happen by information coming in, children making their own choices so much So you can’t look at a child of five and say There’s a child who would be mature enough to accept Jesus. So you’ve got these stages of moral development. They’ve got to get up to the last stage before they’re recognized, as their commitment to Christ is valid. And that this, spiritual formation, it’s called And it’s often talked about in churches and theological colleges and that’s where I think we have some problems. because, when we dealing with these kids, in the psychologists have researched, this stuff for decades, Kids. Some kids get stuck in Some skip stages. it’s scrambled. A lot of it doesn’t actually work Piaget’s sample was way too small. So here we are. Applying this Process to every child. When children aren’t processes they’re people and their individuals and they process Their understanding and their decision making differently for each one. so, unless we recognize that, there’s too many variables in this just to reduce it down but this little formula And then expect every child, we’re going to go through those processes. I’ve seen school programmes especially Sunday, school programs that are designed around Piaget and Vesterhoff’s stages. And you just walk all the kids into that. I mean, There’s valid stuff in there. Don’t get me wrong. but to lock the thing in and just, one size fits all That’s a disaster.

Dan: So then what does the Bible actually say that? We’ve got a lot about things that are not biblical when it comes to this idea of an age of consent what does the Bible actually Because if there are a couple of passages that  try to hint at the idea of reaching an age of knowing the difference between good and evil, what they mean by that I’m hoping you’ll explain a bit more.

David: Yeah. Yeah, I spent a fair bit of time on this one because That when you having kids, you want to get it right. So going through the Bible, the passage that’s most often quoted Is from Isaiah 7:14 to 16 So I’ll read it. Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign, the Virgin will conceive and bear a son and she’ll call his name Emmanuel He shall eat Kurds and honey, when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. But for before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good the land whose two kings you’ve dread will be deserted.

So, At what age does a child. Know to refuse evil and choosegood. He links it to eating curds and honey. eating curds and honey is what you do when you win a child off the breast. So with we’re talking about a child being weaned. And that correlates with the same stage in a child’s development when the child would be mastering their first language. So we’re talking about a two-year-old and what’s the favorite word of a two year old?

Dan: No, if yes and Mom.

David: No. yeah but no. When the child can voice their choice effectively. is that a stage of where we can hold the child morally responsible for everything they’re doing. Obviously not. And how much does a two-year-old understand? But we can hold a two-year-old responsible for what a two year old understands. And two year olds. No enough to know that when they’re doing the wrong thing. Most of the time. You know that because they throw pretty good tantrums.

Dan: And they know how to hide stuff.

David: And they know how to hide stuff and they know how to sneak around and we are born in sin. It’s part of the nature. We inherit it and a two-year-old can now express it. And hopefully, we can reason with a two year old, and what’s even about this passage is that he says when the boy is two years old when the boy reaches this stage, These kings that you fear, their land will be gone. So the northern kingdom of Israel and the Syrians were trying to invade Judah And the king was absolutely terrified. He was outgunned at every level So at this point, Isaiah takes a new wife. She is a virgin. She becomes pregnant. And literally within two years, Ahaz had called on the Assyrians and the Assyrians had come in and wiped out Syria and the northern kingdom. So the two-year thing is exactly what’s going on here. So two-year-old the kid can voice their decisions. Yes. No and they know when they’re in trouble.

Dan: you said that’s the age when we can hold them accountable. But when we’re dealing with this idea of age of consent or being held accountable, and it’s not humans holding them accountable, it’s God. He seems to have a lot greater understanding of who people are before they can talk without them talking. He designs them

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David: This is their heart. Yeah, and…

Dan: Yeah. Yeah knows their thoughts, everything.

David: Yeah, they’re conceived in sin, they’re born in sin They come in. I liken it to people think that might be unfair but Adam declared War on God. He was alienated from God. God talks about enmity being an enemy of God. the kids in Berlin or in London in the 1940s, had absolutely no say in the decisions that adults were making And British bombs dropped on the kids in Berlin German bombs dropped on the kids in England. You’re on this side of the war. it’s not something you chose. It’s something that’s who you are When you come into the world and that’s what that phrase means, We’re. We’re born damage. I didn’t choose to be born with this body. I didn’t choose to be five foot six. I didn’t choose to be born in Australia. What are you grinning at? You can’t take credit for being six foot tall even These are things that we just inherit.

Dan: No.

David: But then after that, the Holy Spirit is the one who saves us. He knows where we are. He knows what trouble we’re in. And there’s a process that’s going to take place. So you read passages like Deuteronomy one., I’ll read 37 to 39 because of you, the Lord be speaking to Israel. The Lord became angry with me, Moses and he said You won’t enter the land either but your assistant, Joshua son of Nun will enter it, encourage him, he’s going to lead Israel to inher ited. And the little ones that you said would be taken, captive your children who don’t yet know good from bad, they will enter the land. I’ll give it to them. So he’s talking about the infants, who don’t yet know, the ones who had just been born. And 40 years later. They’re going to end of the land, they’re going to be the army of invasion. so anybody born after that point,  but that the ones who are adults, God held them accountable, you have. Yeah. When Nehemiah did his big talk, he ever rather Ezra the priest, he brought the law out, he read it to the whole assembly, to the men to the women and to all who could listen with understanding. So there’s women and kids there. And to the extent that they can understand. we deal with them

but there isn’t one cut off. It’s this process. Hebrews, Five talks about solid food is for the mature. Who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. We’re told that Jesus learned obedience through what He suffered. And so did we all? But, Jesus does it without sinning. But we’ve got to go through that learning process. So in a sense, it’s not an age of consent or an age of accountability. It’s a process of learning responsibility. And we are held responsible according to the level of our age. you’re not responsible because you’re a child. and now are suddenly, if you had a certain age and whammo, you’re in jail and you don’t know what hit you And I think that’s a big problem. because we teach, children by not holding them responsible. According to their age level, we teach children that they will never be held responsible. and then all of a sudden they have a birthday and bang they are and I don’t know how to handle that.

So, This has huge impact for us when we were trying to bring the gospel to children.

David: We’ve got to take into account their level of understanding. but at any level of understanding, if a child walks up and says, I want to close the deal with God. I want to believe in Jesus. I want to commit to him. We don’t say you’re too young. Come back and see me later. We say. Let’s build on that, let’s accept that. if it’s a three-year-old integrity, And let’s build on it.

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Dan: Yeah, because the Bible tells you to go baptize them before you make them disciples. Not the other way around.

David: What? Yeah, and discipleship is a commitment. Not just something you’re forced into. So, at the point where you at a three-year-old can repent and believe Your mother was converted at five. I’ve met so many people who are converted in childhood. And I still believe is I think the youngest kid that ever came up to me when I was a pastor was three. And she had the clearest profession of faith. I ran into her 30 years later. She just come back from working as a missionary. that the median then the median age for conversion is Year 9. at that point, when you are, Realizing that you’re an adult. Is the median age for closing the deal with Jesus and people do it earlier than that.

I just give you These examples in the Roman Catholic Church. Kids are confirmed at age eight or nine before puberty. Sort of like an insurance policy. I think sometimes. Baptists usually don’t baptize children or accept their profession of faith till they’re between 12 and 16. Anglicans in my generation. Confirmed kids around 14. There’s all sorts of confusion about when you admit a child to the Lord’s Table.

I remember vividly, 1995 we had changed churches and we were looking for a church and I took you guys to a local Anglican church, And we’d been there for a couple of Sundays and the rector dropped into visit us. And he said, by how old are your kids? And I told him the ages and all four of you had been converted. You’d been baptized as believers and he said, I’m sorry, but your kids aren’t going to be taking the Lord’s Supper at our church because they’re under 15. And I said, where did that age come from? He said, that’s my decision. so, rectors randomly decide how old a kid can be before they will accept their profession of faith. Or admit them into the full status of the church.

And that’s random in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia where we studied Teenagers were allowed to make their profession of faith at 14. But American Indians on the native reservation in Oklahoma, it had to be 20. Because Indians are like children. It was incredibly racist and random. so that’s the thing. We’ve got to throw in the bin. There is no biblical random age of consent. But the Bible recognizes that we train up a child. In the way that they should go and as they make their commitment to God and to Christ. We build on it. We don’t Tell them come back and see me in a couple of years.

Dan: Yeah, Jesus already told off his disciples for telling kids to rack off and come back later.

David: Yeah, and that’s a really scary thing, right? I had a minister refused to baptize one of my grandchildren. Because the boy was 10. And his cutoff age was 12. And I said to him What on earth is going on here? So the young man went up to the minister, this is a kid who wouldn’t let us tuck him into bed at night until we’d prayed for some people’s conversion that he cared about, At three. So at 10, he’s waited this long to screw up the courage. He goes up and he asked And the rector is now you’re not old enough Come back and see me when you’re 12. No other conversation was had. So I went and  had a word with him. And he said, I don’t think the mature enough to understand the commitment that they’re making in baptism, I said, but you’re happy with their commitment to Christ. Which is a whole lot more profound. But not baptism. And where did you get the age from? Well that’s just my decision. And I’m going, welcome to being a rabbi. This is Pharisee stuff we’re making up rules and adding it to the Bible. And that did incredible damage. So you never turn a kid away Who wants to come to Christ? And that’s a real passion of mine, just the damage that it does. So where does that leave us?

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Dan: We don’t have an age according to the Bible of being held responsible to God, but it’s definitely some kind of merit to the idea of being held responsible to humans. that’s fair enough. And next week we’re going to be looking at this. how kids get saved basically and how that all works. So I’m looking forward to that Dad. I can’t wait to come back and chat with you again next week to learn more and diver deeper. Thanks so much for what you shared today. I think it’s been really good to think through where these kind of phases have come from and all the rest of it. And, yeah, definitely not in the Bible that everyone’s got different ideas by the looks of it, but if you guys want to come and ask your questions and get them answered, Please, head over to training for life redeemed.com slash one, one, five so 115. It’s the number of this episode. You’ll learn on the page. there’s a form. If you scroll down you’ll see a form and you can ask any questions about theology of the child and we will jump.in and Answer those questions as best we can, as we move through the series, but for now, that’s it for this week, we’ll hope to see you next week.