Episode 116 – What does the Bible say happens to infants who die?

Dan

…Hi everyone And welcome to training for life redeemed. I’m your host Dan. I’m here with my father, David Jackson. We both have red noses Dad It’s red nose day here in Australia at the moment. and red nose days all about sudden infant death syndrome and raising awareness about that which is very suitable dad to what we’re talking about today..

We’ll be looking at infant salvation. if it’s possible. Are infant saved How do they get saved All that kind of stuff dad. So why did you kick us off Let’s go back to. You know very traditional kind of approaches.

Let’s start with something like the Westminster confession of faith we’ve got in front of us. What does it say about. Well salvation of people and. Or whatever else…

1.38 David

Yeah I love to talk about. Let’s start with the good news. we are dealing with a God of grace a God who is in charge of salvation. So the Westminster confession and five. I think is the best statement.

On what happens to children? Who die. And it says. says, so if you want to look it up it’s Westminster confession of faith, chapter 10. paragraph three.

And it says this. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated That means they’re born again. And they’re saved by Christ through the spirit. Who works when where and how he pleases. So also all other elect persons who are Incapable. Of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word. So what it’s saying is. We have the responsibility of preaching the gospel. But there’s a whole bunch of people, infants, people without language, people with intellectual disability, whatever. Who are in capable of accessing the word of God through language. Therefore, what happens to them? If they die. And we can’t communicate the gospel to them. 

2.43 Dan

Yeah it’s also a two They can’t communicate where they’re at with us. That’s the other side of the story 

2.47 David

Yeah. So, we have. Sometimes we make assumptions about that I’ll tell you a story about that later, but…what this is saying is salvation is a work of God. He is sovereign in saving these people. before the foundation of the word world. He planned the story and into that story he wrote people who would be saved and people who would not. And that’s a sovereign decision of God. And he alone has the right to make that choice. Yeah that’s what the Bible teaches. unfortunately, When we’re hit with some of these very emotional and. Challenging situations we don’t want to go back to the Bible. We want to make reality do what we want it to do. and so we. Start to come up with reasons for why we think God should do what we want. And the end result. And as we are going to see is that you spend the rest of your life… Obsessing about this because you’ve got to make it work. Rather than leaving it with God. who has it all under control anyway. So. If it’s about us being in control of the salvation of children then we’re going to spend the rest of our life working on it. If God is in charge. Then we humbly… Allow ourselves to be ignorant of what his decisions are. We leave it with him, but knowing him we leave it with him in peace. and that’s a really important thing. 

4.29 Dan

Yeah because I mean the Westminster confession  gives you the impression that when talking about  elect infants So it doesn’t really give you a definition of that except that they’re the ones who received the holy spirit. Yeah And, are chosen by God’s. Which is you know, just kind of your definition of elect people in general. so there are definitely. people around. Who are going to try and ad A definition to You know these children are elected. And these ones are not elected infants. normally it’s based on the faith of their parents. 

4.58 David

we’ll talk about that next week…But here’s our problem. And I’ll go back to an actual experience This is, I mean, We all know we’ve experienced miscarriages and stillbirths and so forth Yep…

Many years ago one of the members of our church rang decided that. she was nine months pregnant She was in hospital. they’re just been doing the ultrasound things. And they discovered that the baby had died in the womb. And so we had this very sad scenario where the baby is born. and then a week later I was called on to take the funeral. And so you sit down with a you know a mixed crowd around the funeral of a little baby. And you have to think about what what’s the gospel say? To this where is our comfort Where is our hope.

Now on that occasion I searched the scriptures These were people we knew and loved. it impacted the whole church. What do you say What does God have to say to this? I found the answer in John 11. And in John 11 you have this amazing scene where Jesus  gets a messenger that says. You know that your friend Lazarus has died…So, and you expect Jesus to come dashing over and heal him And it’s all done Oh not, not he’s died. He’s sick. So Jesus doesn’t come. He waits to Lazarus is dead. He waits till Lazarus has been dead Three days three days.

Which is how long it would’ve, might’ve taken him to wander over I don’t know. but he gets there. And everybody’s bawling And they’re saying if only you’d been here he wouldn’t have died And the rest of it. So then you have Jesus standing in front of the tomb…And…I mean if I had the power to raise the guy from the dead. It would be let’s go down to the term I get that stone out. Out you come. Instead of that Jesus stands in front of the tomb and we get these three amazing statements. The first is on an English version Say he was troubled. Yeah.

7.13 Dan

Yeah English is always good at translating Greek. 

7.15 David

Or no he was deeply moved as the phrase right. Well w the Greek word for deeply moved is the snorting of a war horse before it charges. it’s a word that means you’re raging inside It’s an angry word 

7.28 Dan 

Yeah I actually when I, I did a project on this…and I remember when I was trying to describe to in the article what that word meant. I had the vision of a cartoon character. But yeah you’ve watched them get angry and their face goes all red and smoke blows out their ears. And it’s that kind of imagery that You’re thinking of when you, when he’s you know, 

7.54 David

And the next word that describes Jesus as emotion is that he’s boiling It’s the word for boiling water. So I’m looking at this in English versus he was deeply moved He was troubled He wept. And what you have is he’s raging angry, he’s boiling and he’s bawling. And you go in two minutes you’re going to raise him from the dead what’s going on here. And the answer is. Death…This is the God who was taken flesh to defeat death. And when he faces the death of a friend…Death is obscene It’s not natural. It’s a violation of the image of God It is the ultimate vandalism of the image of God. It is so offensive to God and he’s raging ready to go in there and punch death in the head. which he does He defeats death. But this is the guy This is the God who will decide what happens to this baby…

He is the one who is sovereign over death. Who was sovereign over life. The Lord gave the Lord took away blessed be the name of the Lord. That’s our response. When we lose a child. And that’s a fearful thing. But it’s a great comfort because. I don’t know whether this child is elect or not elect. That’s entirely God’s right. I have no say in that…But this is the God in whose hands I’m leaving that child. Hmm. He is the one who died in my place. He is the one who created, he decides…I’m happy to leave it with him. And he is our comfort. Not knowing the outcome. So this is an exercise of Trusting God that is probably one of the most challenging where we’ve got to humbly say. I’m not in control of this. Hmm. God is and just let God be God…

But we’re not like that’s not what we’re like. We want to control everything. and we want to know the things. So there’s a beautiful verse in Deuteronomy 29:29 which says. The revealed things belong to us and our children. That’s the scriptures that’s God’s plan of salvation Yeah…But the secret things belong to God…And then none of our business. Job learned that lesson when God sat him down and for five chapters. And who do you think you are asking me all these questions. 

10.23 Dan

Even though you’re in the right You’re totally right. But, you know, You’re still something I created.

10.24 David

But you don’t sit in judgment on me You don’t call me into court you know? and Job said well actually I didn’t call you into court I just want to know…

Well you’re not going to know it’s none of your business Yeah. Yeah. That’s a comfort. And that’s how Job finishes up I’m comforted on my dust and ashes. And that’s where we’ve got to be.

10.41 Dan

Yeah. Which is not where everyone’s been in history. you’ve got it on here on my notes And I’ve got right here for you Dad…

10.53 David

Well there’s a couple of really classic example. 

10.55 Dan

Let’s get a Spurgeon first Spurgeon. Says that all infants who die are elect and saved. so that’s the book…So…Spurgeon is very famous. preacher really. He’s amazing. I remember what century he was in 18. the sermon was preached You can read that…1861 

11.19 David

There you go. 1861. So…he preached. A sermon on infant salvation in 1861 He was a great preacher. You know 5,000 people in the congregation in London during the sort of Dickens’ London era. Yeah. A great advocate for orphans widows. All sorts of good, good work. Brilliant preacher, but he got this wrong. and he got this wrong because…he’s in sermon he says, All infants dying in infancy are saved…And the basis on which you would give that comfort to parents. Is that he believed that all infants dying in infancy were elect…

So unlike some people. They, he claimed they’re saved on the same basis Anybody else is. Jesus died in their place. The holy spirit they are elect. The holy spirit has regenerated them and therefore they’re saved.

But the, the gap in what’s going on here is Spurgeon claimed to know That all infants dying in infancy are among the elect. nowhere in the Bible has God told us that…

Yeah. So we don’t know who the elect are And…who is and who isn’t. He claimed to know but there’s no basis for that. And when you read on in his sermon…It’s a bit sad…But his argument basically is…good God wouldn’t hurt a child…

12.53 Dan

Yeah but I can see plenty of examples in the Bible Dad where God’s in his judgment on Israel has definitely hurt lots of children. Using Assyria or Babylon And, you know if you read. The Psalm 136. 137. where, you know they’re singing about. Revenge coming on Babylon and may someone grab their children and smack their heads against the rocks. And they’re saying that because it happened to them. And that was part of God’s judgment where God’s using Babylon. 

12.28 David

Yeah they went after other gods and those other gods sacrificed children to You know, killed their children because they got in the way of them making money. Yeah. Something that might ring true with our culture. And. God is saying. If this is what you want. I’m handing you over to them in judgment. And that affects infants and babies and children and women. I mean when we tell God to go jump off the planet. We want to recreate reality and do it our own way Who suffers most? Children and women. Yep. In my observation. they are the most vulnerable. and they’re the most abused. And I’m not minimizing what happens to the men Cause they, they go out and slaughter each other. But, you know we all know that when you look at war and you look at what’s going on in the world…You see the men fight it out and you go yeah you’re a bunch of boof heads. All right. You know men are all… Whatever they are. But, you know to hurt women and children that’s a big deal.

And that’s not how God operates. Every individual person is an image of God in their own right in Their own dignity. And if you see Jesus being angered by death. You understand something of the horror of God. At the way we treat each other and the way we treat God and the judgment on that falls on the whole of humanity regardless of age. So if you go through the Old Testament, you look at the first born of Egypt dying. You look at Jericho, everybody’s wiped out. And you can’t Spurgeon’s argument that you know God sees little children as cute and innocent. That’s not gonna work. The Bible won’t support that argument. So. Again we go back to I don’t know who God’s elect are I don’t know who he chooses to save. I just have to trust him that that’s his call.

So that’s Spurgeon’s decision and it’s widely believed. And widely assumed because that’s what we want to be true. and I think every time we look at the Bible and say, this is what I want to be true Can I find a Bible verse to back me up…Then we need to know that we’re in trouble. Yeah. that’s the wrong way. Yeah That’s cart before the horse. 

15.48 Dan

Yeah we need to be working through our texts and then come out with conclusions.

That’s right. Okay dad…Spurgeon got things wrong. The Arminians are going to follow. Suit a bit here you’ve got here Ron Buckland as another example. Ah with a quote that you have from him about all children beginning with God and therefore they’re all going to go back to God and. it’s a very much quite similar to what Spurgeon says really where they’re all saved and it’s all Okay.

16.17 David

Well, Ron Buckland. I came across Ron back in the eighties we were invited to go on beach mission. do the adult ministry. wasn’t exactly. I don’t know, I found that a bit difficult. but it took us down to beach mission…children’s special service mission was run by the Scripture Union. They still run beach missions It’s still a good thing And it. It’s done an amazing amount of good. But this particular few years Ron Buckland was the head of Scripture Union. He was in charge of beach mission and children’s ministry. And so all the beach mission leaders and I was like a chaplain to the beach mission team. We went along to this big conference that he ran. And I, I was stunned. Because at the end of his speech, the beginning of your speech his main point was…Our mission to children is not to call on them to say yes to Jesus. And I’m going what…Our mission to children is persuade them not to say no to Jesus as they get older…

17.25 Dan

So that’s a presumption that they’ve all said yes already then. 

17.27 David

So we have this quote from, Mr Buckland. That says, I think I wrote it down on here somewhere so I wouldn’t forget it: all children begin with God…

So…in a sense he’s denied the whole concept of original sin. what he’s saying is children don’t become sinners till they reach an age of consent where they can choose to sin. Until then. They’re neutral/ innocent They just start off with God. And somewhere along the way they get to choose And until they’ve chosen, They’re all saved.

well that flies in the face of so much of the Bible. Yep. Yeah. He belongs to a particular theology that’s known as Arminianism. what that means is that. God…God doesn’t choose people until after they choose. Yeah. So we’re in control We make the choice. And when we’ve made the choice God says okay I’ll put you on the list. Hm.

Whereas the Bible says that list was written before the foundation of the earth. Ephesians chapter one. That’s right. So here we are. We’re in control. We make the decisions and the neutral position is you’re saved until you. unsave yourself…

well that the whole Bible just flies in the face of that. Yeah 

Dan

Try reading Romans with that stance 

David

Yeah. It doesn’t work but it puts us in a see it puts us in an emotional place. And the way we raised children completely changes. Because it depends on me. To get those children’s saved and it depends on the child to save themselves. 

Dan

Sounds a lot like works to me. 

David

Yeah it makes. It makes saving faith. good work that God rewards, rather than something God gives us as a gift. Because Jesus died in our place and because…of his grace unmerited. And…so it just turns everything on its head, but it also means. If my children’s salvation depends on me…

Dan

Yeah that’s not very a good position to be in really. 

David

Yeah I’m not I can’t do that. Yeah. I, I. I’m being taking responsibility for something I don’t have the power to do. And that’s a bondage That’s a. That’s a grief. And so if your children don’t come to Christ, It’s your fault. I mean, No parent is perfect. But this is not something God holds us responsible for. You know we nurture them We give them the F we give them the informed choice. But that’s the ultimate decision is God’s. It’s not even their decision it’s God’s decision. So, yeah. That’s a terrible thing to put on.

20.27 Dan

So we got they’re not all saved. Well are they. We don’t know that there was. We don’t know the very least we don’t know. the Bible is clear that people are chosen and elect from before the foundation of the world That’s in the Bible Quite a lot of the time It’s funny when people talk about yeah Do you believe in predestination or not And I just think it’s. That’s such a clear thing in the Bible that we are all predestined like. Yeah those of us who were saved or predestined chosen before the foundation of the world. All that kind of stuff It’s very clear in the Bible The idea of predestination, our problem is our ability to accept. That it’s predestination. That God  has the right to do that to me. Yeah. You know God is my equal He has no right to.

It’s not just to me it’s also to. My child to everyone. and it doesn’t matter how old they are whether they’re yet to be born or whether they’re. 127. 

21.20 David

I just remember first day of preschool or kindergarten. We’re school teachers So…I used to do the enrolments for kindergarten and it was, it was. It was fun. It was sort of sad but it’s fun. To watch the mothers hand the child over to the school…

And the teachers are saying go home. All right Don’t hang around looking in the window for the rest of the day to see. Your little darlings All right. You are letting go of your control of this child for the next six hours. And the children are dancing into school This is all exciting And the mothers are all oooh…Can I do this? And you think. Well that’s just handing it out. Just the school. Handing it over to God. for eternity. That’s a much bigger thing that we have to learn to do. But yeah. Yeah…

22.17 Dan

Well Dad I think that’s going to bring us to the end of this episodes Yeah. It’s been great to chat about infant salvation. We are going to talk about the children of the elected our next episode…

Children of believers. I’m not sure whether they’re even elect. Say you’re a believer then. You know, we can’t believe without receiving the spirit Isn’t that. We hope the profession of faith is true…

Okay So we’re going to talk about the children or people. who from a human perspective look like they saved. Tell us. Yep. I mean talk about that next week So please come back and join us next week as we do that.

if you would like to ask us a question or anything related to the theology of the child or this episode to what we got to chat about that next ones. Please head over to trainingforliferedeemed.com/116. the number of this episode and you can ask questions There there’ll be a form. 

23.14 David

And if you want to go and have a look@rednose.org Dot EDU. Yep. there’s an exciting story there about the research that has brought sudden infant death syndrome down 80%. And that that’s something to thank God for…

23.26 Dan

So get onto that too And we will see you next week. Look forward.