Episode 117 Covenant Children

Dan
Hi everyone and welcome to trainingforliferedeemed. I’m Dan. I’m here with my father David Jackson. We’ve been working our way through the theology of the child. And so today dad we’re diving into the covenant children aspects. In our last episode we were chatting about where infants Go when they die. The biblical perspective of you know God has chosen and predestined particular people including infants. It’s some are saved some aren’t and this is about really knowing. Whether or not We can though. which ones are which ones aren’t or whether we just have to leave it to God.
There are some passages in the Bible that make people think that possibly covenant children are saved So. Me and Mel my wife we’re both Christians our kids then just. saved because they’re our kids. or do they need to have something else happened Basically? Yeah that’d be considered to be. Chosen by God So. Dad let’s dive into it. A lot to go here I think generally speaking for me. in Sydney where we are Anglicans kind of a dominance. Yep church around, they seem to sprinkle or baptize Children. because of the faith of their parents At least kind of. It’s kind of the premise is that the parents are. Christians and then then they’re willing to baptize there. Babies. As Andy depending on where you go some will say this is more of a, a dedication type thing than an actual baptism ties and saved type thing. others will say that that’s you know they’re part of God’s family but then not necessarily part of the elect family…
It’s a good. That’s right. So help us help us out Where does…Can you give us…maybe just read the main. Points are that people kind of have a where it comes from and then we’ll dive into…those verses. that people particularly hold on to.
David 2.41
Yeah, you have it. You have a long, you have the Roman Catholic tradition that came up through the middle ages. that gave the priest the power to regenerate children. So this is almost a shamanistic sort of a thing where by saying the magic words and doing the magic ritual, the child is regenerated. When your grandmother had quads. the doctor on duty was not terribly responsible. She was six months pregnant. he told her to shut up spread her legs and burst the waters and killed four babies. that night the nuns at that particular place without asking anybody’s permission Christened  all Four boys so that they would go to heaven. Hmm. Because if they didn’t they’d go to hell. So there’s lots of superstition around the whole topic. Coming out of the reformation then you’ve got this culture of including the children in the church. and then the question is are they saved and in. an era where you had 50% infant mortality. There’s a great passion that they be saved. You want some assurance. And so the church gave them that assurance. And then you find 500 different voices. Explaining where they got that assurance from. All sorts of different stories. and we’ve explored a couple of those. But we’re at a point now where. You know if we take the Bible seriously we’re going to go back to the text. And instead of doing all the historical theology, What did people in the past believe? We’ve got to the point where we go to the Bible and we ask, what did God actually say? and that’s a really challenging exercise. because we’re going to decide whether we put tradition of our church as that is. Our identity. And we put that on our children. And somehow quite that with being saved. Or whether we’re going to go back to the Bible. And talk about the gospel. And I would have to say at this point we’re fairly confused.
4.40 Dan
yeah. Yes definitely And I think…there’s elements of confusion that are based on yeah The common practices that are shown Yep. And the teaching like ah I got quite confused even at my own church They did a baptism of. A baby recently. And the way that it was presented to me was a complete contradiction. You know when he, the person who was baptizing said that. the baby is Accepted and part of God’s family, but he also said that it, that. That doesn’t mean that the baby was saved and I’m like well, God’s family…that is confusing And I can see how that would confuse other people that I remember having a conversation with some. Other people at the church afterwards about it. and they, yeah people find it hard to go Well, you know, what what does the Bible actually say 

6.30 David

We’re saying one thing on the one hand. That you know these children are in. And then we’re going to go to the children and what are we going to say to the child And that’s where the bird my burden is. What do you say to the child? Of believers Do you evangelize the child? And call on them to make Jesus their Lord and savior and repent of their sins. Or do you simply give them the assurance they’re already and they’ve got nothing to worry about. And you work on that basis.

 So let me read you This is, Recently we had a baptism question come to the synod of Sydney diocese. And so as Anglicans do whenever a big question comes up you refer it to a committee. And you wait a year for the committee to report back and then you know another year for comment anyway.

 so the doctrine commission which is headed by the principal of Moore college. Went and investigated this question that was raised. They came back with this statement I’ll read it to you. 

“it is the gospel that allows the prayer book to declare it. ‘We yield These hearty thinks most merciful father. That it has pleased you to regenerate this infant with your holy spirit and to receive him for your own child by adoption, and to incorporate him into your holy church.’ This declaration is based on the promises of the gospel. And publicly identify as the one baptized. As a member of God’s family.”

  Now that’s what the official Anglican position is. It’s a bit awkward because on the one hand we say, You know sprinkling water on a baby’s four a doesn’t regenerate the child. But then in the prayer book service we give thanks We pray that it will. Yeah we declare that God promised he would And then afterwards we give thanks that he did. regenerate the child during the process. So Anglicans would argue. It’s not causative the water doesn’t cause regeneration Yeah but it correlates in the timing. It corresponds. God chooses to do it. Yeah…

 I was disappointed with that report. Because there’s two things that are going on there Two questions we need to separate. Is the child saved…That’s one issue. What is this being part of God’s family thing? Is that the same thing as being saved? And so an argument has generated since the reformation. and it’s been mainly since the reformation. That says that if we take the old covenant as our model…Abraham circumcised babies at eight days old. Baby boys. Yep. So you were born an Israelite. if you were a proselyte you could opt in. There are ways of doing that. But if you were born. In the Israelite…tribe nation family. You’re in Israelite…That’s something you receive at birth? That puts you under a covenant obligation with God…Because Israel is his covenant people. So…does that then transfer To the new covenant. Are the children of believing parents. Born Christians…The way it Israelites were born Israelites. 

8.52 Dan

And I think too like being born and is a lot even in the old Testament there’s an element of There’s the elect within Israel. so just because you were born and circumcised and made an Israelite it doesn’t actually mean that you were saved 

9.06 David

So. Here’s the two separate questions…And the two separate questions are, does this equal salvation or are we talking about some set of privileges Other than salvation. Yeah. Does it relate to it but at the same thing, 

9.23 Dan

Is baptism. Correlating with circumcision. Yeah or is it different because there’s other things in the old Testament where baptism. Was quite common. Yeah. So for the person coming in for your priest who was about to become 

9.38 David

the baptism question sort of hangs on what you do with the salvation. What does that mean What does it mean if you’re in God’s family Is that the same thing? And. We sort of muddle up all of that. so when we come to talk about this. Generally putting the baptism issue aside. When we talk about what is the place of these children? A lot of the language is that the child is covered by the faith of their parents. So in many a baptism service the parents will renounce sin. Satan. And sin the devil and whatnot. In the name of the child So this is a exercise of faith by proxy. Hmm. and then you’ve got to go back and ask the questions Where did that come from? there are two passages in the Bible that are used, and they’re fairly critical that this whole discussion…one is the passenger next to the next chapter two 

 In Acts chapter 2 We have this. The statement. Peter’s preaching to the crowd What must we do to be saved? Repent believe  repent and be baptized every one of you for the forgiveness of your sins. And then there’s this thing, the promises to you and to your children.

1049 Dan

And all who are far off and everywhere else. 

1050 David

Yeah, so. This I call this culpable exegesis That is it’s. You know that what you’re doing Is taking a passage out of context. And you know you’re doing that for a tendentious reason to make a case. So Acts 2:37. It says this. And I’ll read it. brothers what did we do 39. Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you’ll receive the gift of the holy spirit That’s first that 38. So the promise is the gift of the holy spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children And for all who are far off. For everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself. So the promise of the gift of the holy spirit Is a promise made to everybody who hears the gospel Whether it be this generation your children people are far off people in the next generation. Whenever wherever people hear the gospel. The promises if you repent and you baptized if you believe. You will receive the gift of the holy spirit That’s the package. There is nothing there that says the promise of salvation. Is to you and your children…And then stop. 

This isn’t the promise of salvation This is the promise that if you or they respond to the gospel, they will receive the gift of the holy spirit. Yeah. 

1220 Dan

Which. Yeah you get when you’re saved.

1224 David

 and the gift of the holy spirit is not the same as regeneration. Hmm. that you. These guys were the apostles were all born again before they received the gift of the holy spirit. So This this is a deliberate misuse of that text. to make a promise that God didn’t make…and that’s dangerous 

12.42 Dan

Okay. And the other passage that I know of is a 1 Corinthians 7, are that Yes. It’s about sanctifying. And marriages and husbands and wives and children that are then made holy. and that is often used because the child is Holy Therefore Holy people are saved 

13.00 David

and this is another passage which I think. Is culpable misuse of the Bible. So the the passage is 1 Corinthians 7:14. And this is what it says.

“the unbelieving husband. Is sanctified through his wife. The unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children are unclean. But now they are holy.” 

So what happens is we take the phrase, your children are holy. To mean your children are saved. And then we turn that into a promise by God that the children of believers are all holy saints saved 

1340 Dan

Yeah. We only need one parent to be 

1342 David

only one parent needs to be a believer. And the child of any believing parent. Is holy saved. 

1350 Dan

Yeah. Dad I know. From history. Cause I’ve yeah you taught me to be my Bible Well, so Ezra, when he comes back…Has a similar issue where he has a whole bunch of Israelites who have married Samaritans and other, other people who were living in the area that the Assyrians and the Babylonians put there…when they took everyone out and destroyed Everyone and that people ran off to hide in Egypt. And so. Ezra’s coming back he’s a teacher of the law. Basically, and he’s coming back he’s reading through the law and he sees in front of him all these…Israelites who are married to non-Israelites. And he’s reading the law and going well that’s not allowed to happen. That’s a big problem for us It’s part of what caused us to go into exile in The first place. 

14.33 David

And it was especially a problem because it was priests that had married. And Levites too had married Gentiles Yup And Gentiles worshiped other gods. And so all the warnings have got, you know setting off the alarms. 

14.48 Dan

Historically as we then said you guys will have to send your wives and children away They’re not part of God’s…Covenant people that they’ve got to go. Yep. And so…Well I then hear passages like this. They’ve got a lot like. As a similarity. The similarity here where we’ve got Christians marrying non-Christians or yeah one They were already married and one becomes a Christian Christian what did then happen is do they get divorced Like do they have to send away there. So that’s the question. Lots Lots of talk about that particularly in Corinthians about marriage and who gets to stay and go and what’s considered. 

15.25 David

The boundary is in 2 Corinthians 6, you cannot be unequally yoked with unbelievers That whole passage is talking about marriage. So the boundary isn’t an ethnic boundary under the new covenant. Because people of every nation driving language or joining the gospel and the kingdom of God. You don’t marry outside of. The Christian faith. You don’t marry an unbeliever. now of course there’s situations where that’s happened. There’s situations where one spouse is converted and the other one isn’t. and that causes all sorts of ructions. But in that process, Paul writes instructions in 1 Corinthians 7 For how to handle that situation. So you’ve got an unbelieving spouse husband or wife. A believe in space now if you’re a Jew. And you’re a Christian. You are now asking the question Ezra asked. Is this marriage What what’s the status of this marriage? Now Paul uses the word sanctified. And we immediately go to that means saint means holy means saved. But in rabbinic language that is nothing like what it meant. and. Yeah There’s a guy called. 

16.41 Dan

I think part of the issue too for us in modern world. Is that those words aren’t getting translated. No they’re being. They’ve met They’ve been Christianized Yup and that means that whenever we hear the word. sanctifying it’s Holy and we just go well that’s. All has to do with God We put the whole. Because that’s the only context we’ve ever heard those words but if those words were actually translated, Into what they were actually mean. In English then suddenly we are. see that it can actually mean a different thing in that context 

17.14 David

So a fella called Gillihan. did us a great service Back in 2002. In the journal of biblical literature he investigated. the rabbinic documents So the Mishnah and those sort of texts that describe the activities of the Jewish rabbis. Between you know 150 BC to 200 AD. In that same period where Paul was a rabbi. Jews would come with the question. Am I a Jew. Are My children going to be recognized in the synagogue as Jews. What’s our status, in Israel. So this is an ethnic status or religious status in terms of the Jewish community.

and then you’ve got lots of old Testament laws, that describe the process for incorporating somebody’s a mixed marriage. So for example, a Levite can only marry Levite. What if a Levite married a non- Levite what’s the status of the children? What do they inherit? Do they inherited in Levi or do they inherit somewhere else Mmm. Mmm. What’s the status of somebody who. has married…Somebody from another nation there’s laws in there about you know the Moabites can only become Jews after 10 generations. You know, there’s there’s grades is it My my grandmother was a Roman. my great-grandmother it’s sort of like the question we have about Aboriginal identity. it’s ethnic identity. And so the marriage is sanctified. If…What. At what level is it sanctified? So the rabbis has have all these rulings and it’s all documented and we know what sanctified means. So when a woman. When a man proposes to a woman in the Jewish community. He sanctifies her…And if she is. she is sanctified. Once you sanctified. Basically she’s…yeah she’s claimed. Right within the Jewish community. and that’s what this means So you’ve got an unbelieving husband. Who is sanctified…

19.22 Dan

Yeah, so the marriage is still legitimate, basically. 

19.23 David

John Calvin in his commentary on that passage says this has got nothing to do. With being saved. This is all about the legitimacy of the marriage and the legitimacy of the children. Well Calvin knew that. But here we are today, claiming these words. Apply mean that the child the children are saved, but we don’t make that claim about the unbelieving husband. 

19.49 Dan

Yeah. We need to be having a very hard time to claim that because later on there’s a passage about how do you know, how do you know. wife, if you real saved your husband or not, that’s right 

19.57 David

And you you know you have the situation where he wants to walk out. And Paul is very strong He says if he wants to go He doesn’t just say let him it’s an imperative mood. He has to go. Hmm. So you don’t know if you will save your unbelieving husband or your unbelieving wife. by comparison You don’t know you’re going to save your kids either. Yeah. even though it’s a legitimate marriage and all the rest of it… The salvation question is not the one he’s asking here. So that’s another use of the language. 

I’ll tell you the story we were in. During the course of baptism at Westminster with one of the…most brilliant minds on the subject a fella called Norman Shepherd. And he had me almost persuaded which took some doing. Had your mother persuaded. so we’re wrestling with this issue Big time. Glen Davies did the same course. came out with a different place. But we also had a…amazing fellow sitting at the back Monty Ledford. He was a Mennonite. And so in the middle of this big. You know lecture. He puts his hand up and he says professor shepherd…The children are sanctified You. That means they’re saved Yeah. Okay. And they’re part of the church Yep. All right. What if the kid’s 13 and he says he’s an unbeliever. Would you still baptize him? Yes says Shepherd…If he’s 16. Yes…What about the unbelieving husband Would you baptize him? If he’s willing to come under the discipline of the church. Now at this point every Presbyterian. guy in the room is going…huhhhh

there’s a there’s a problem You’ve got an unbeliever and you’re going to baptize him. Because he’s sanctified. So, how does that work professor Shepherd We would disciple him. Baptizing and disciple with teaching. What if after you’ve taught him he says I still don’t believe what we put him out of the church under church discipline. So he’s gone from being an unbeliever an apostate without ever having been converted…And Shepherd just looked at him and said yes, Hmm. And this is the sort of knots we tie ourselves in. By bringing people into the church who have not made a profession of faith. And then what do you do with them when they don’t make a profession of faith? Yeah.

22.15 Dan

What happens Afterwards. If he still is the husband of the woman. And you’ve excommunicated him but she’s still a Christian isn’t he still sanctified like it’s… Yeah it seems very. 

22.30 David

If you go down that route. Monty was a bit of a class clown comic. He liked to provoke things. But there’s the logic of it. And there’s the I think that logic applies to the children. Hm. So you know you tell a child all through their growing up years. That they’re safe in Christ. And then suddenly after puberty you’re going to turn around and ask them to make a commitment and they say no thank you…Where do they stand? They were in the church. but they’re not out of the church. Hmm. Where w what’s this No no Man’s land. And I think. For me that. That became a real issue teaching in a Christian school. Became a real issue Thinking about raising you guys. 23.25 Dan

for anyone At church and doing any kind of kids program. How you talk to the kids there Yeah. Then changes are your mission to those kids or are you just discipling those kids Yeah So…

23.25 David

Yeah. This this becomes the problem. I’ll read these words from. one of our Anglican church leaders will remain nameless…But he says “the children of believers are very different from pagans. And the choices they make as they mature are also very different. For a pagan to become a Christian they must choose to enter into the covenant community. By their decision to put their faith in Christ. Good. They were outside of his people Now they step in. Baptism of course functioned. in the new Testament is a sign of the covenant entry, but a child raised in the home of believers has a very different choice to make. His or her choice will be to stay in or depart from the covenant community. As they grow, they are in that community of faith by virtue of their birth. Into a family who themselves are in the covenant community.” So he says, “we all treat our young children as small Christians. Who need to mature rather than pagans who need conversion…” Well we don’t all do that…For a start. But the payoff if we do. Produces some bizarre outcomes. One is children’s talks in church. That give the, all of the children, including visitors assurance That they’re saved I remember one memorable talk on John 14:1–3 . “ in my father’s house are many mansions I go to prepare a place for you.” And the person giving the children’s talk said, do you know children that there is a place. In God’s house with your name on it… Nothing to worry about. Hmm. Whereas we would then go in a July holiday club and asked the same group of children and their friends. To commit to Jesus. And we’ll come back and report on the kids who made a commitment to Christ. so we’re saying one thing over here and we’re saying something opposite over there. And the children are sitting there and they’re supposed to figure out how this works. And at the same time we have. All sorts of doubts about whether a child is mature enough to make a commitment to Christ. So when they do we say they’re there come back and talk to me when you’re 12. or older…this in our theology. of the child…We’re not distinguishing the privileges of being a believers kid. As opposed to salvation. 

So, what we would argue from the scriptures is there’s buckets of privileges for being the child of a believer. Hmm. and you you only have to think about what that involves you think of people in the. You know we send missionaries to spend 20 years learning a language translating the scriptures. To bring it to somebody who’s never heard the gospel. while this three year old is sitting there Sucking it all in. Yeah. And they’ll do that for the rest of their life. Hopefully. And there’s privileges here. And the privileges are all about And what I would say is an added responsibility. If you’re a child of a Christian family. And you’ve been brought up hearing the gospel. I think there’s a level of greater judgment. If you walk away from that. Than on those. Who’ve never heard. Who then. this is this comes as. Out of the clear blue sky. Whereas for you you’ve grown up in perhaps taken it for granted. Hmm. 

So this leads to some bizarre customs in Christian parent controlled schools, it was forbidden to evangelize the children… Yeah. I got into arguments with people because we were mainly evangelizing children at our Christian school. And they said oh, they’re covenant children You’re denying their salvation. You’re denying the promises of God If you call on them to commit to Christ…And you go. Sorry guys. what promises. The promises are I will give you lots of benefits, but the promise is not, you will be saved by being born of the right parents…Yeah. Yeah. My mind you. I’ll just tell the last story. 

My granddaughter. Age 12. Put a hand up we had a presentation from a more college lecturer. And he was talking about. Various things and you know, any difficult questions that children might ask. She put her hand up This is what happens to babies when they die. And so he gave the whole story about the assurance that we can give to children born at Christian parents…And he did this whole long thing about. Children to Christian parents We’re all in heaven No worries…I resisted the urge to put my hand up and say what happens to all the other ones? because no minister that I know of will say they’re going to hell…

So. What are these promises Where do you find them in scripture? And when you go back and you look at Israel under the old covenant. How many believed. If God made a promise they’re all saved He. Broke it

Glen Davis. Blend or one of them asked me one day. So if there’s a change from old covenant to new covenant, wouldn’t you expect. That in the new covenant, somebody would say something about the fact that that doesn’t apply anymore. So you know you come into the state of Israel by being born into Israel. If you’re not born into the Christian Church, Wouldn’t somebody say something that that’s a change. And I thought well that’s a fair challenge. So I searched the scriptures and there it is. Jesus says. I did not come to bring peace on the earth but a sword. And to just to divide father against son. Mother against daughter in laws and Outlaws. 

29.37 Dan

And I would even argue. Like the whole point of Paul’s. arguing so heavily against circumcision. Yeah. And saying that circus has done away with that You should not keep it anymore or otherwise your. Saying that the promise hasn’t been kept Cause the circumcision is actually a promise about whether or not this child is Jesus. All that kind of stuff. There’s a lot to go into it.

But then I think. We’re kind of need to wrap this episode I’ve ever go for a little while and I think. We’ve kind of come to the point where the children of Christian parents. essentially the same. Position as pagan parents where we don’t know. if they’re elect or chosen or not. And so our. And it used to continue to witness and. teach them teach them and evangelize. 

30.25 David

Then bring them up in the nurture. And admonition of the Lord. because they’re going to make their choice as God. Does his thing in their lives. and it’s all of grace. So, yeah that’s where we end up. We ended up in faith. 

30.36 Dan

Well, the biggest at the end of this episode if you would like to come and ask a question about this episode you can head over to trainingforliferedeemed.com/117. Otherwise we look for that You subscribe to. Do you subscribing and coming back and joining us next week, as we continue to look at the theology of the child.